Stanley A Meyer
Understanding the VIC
Yes this is Priceless Rare Data of Stanley A Meyer and Knowledge suggest you back up all of it immediately and share it to others.
The time has come to tell my story how Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works. October the 23th 2016
First! This Builder wanted to have a disclaimer statement. I he and others will not be responsible for anyone that uses this information in this thread to create any type of voltage and current either high or low of either of the two.
You take full responsibility of your own actions and the use of any information that is discussed in this thread. "High Voltage and Current can KILL You" This thread, and the post in this thread made by me or others, is for information use only.
Second! It is assumed that anyone that uses this information has at least the basic knowledge of electronics, formulas and equations. Therefor I will not be held responsible for anyone that uses this information, and can not get a Fuel Cell to work
Several years back a builder made the discovery how Stan was able to produce gas on demand for the second time. Like everyone else I keep throwing voltage to the water hoping to see it just fall apart into Hydrogen and Oxygen with no luck at all.
Like everyone else, with very little production of the two gases. (Due to Amp Leakage)
The Event Horizon
He came across a drawing in Stan's Tech Brief that clearly shows their is amp leakage in the cell.
(Which I will Post below)
Like everyone else, I thought the resonant reaction Stan talked about, was on the water itself.
When in fact the resonate action will only take place when the water is removed from within the cells.
Then an only then will the two choke coils come together and interact with one another.
As long as there is water between the cells, the two choke coils will not interact with each other which will stop any resonance to occur between the two due to the dead short. (Water),
( spark gap with no spark but plasma) like a spark gap the plasm gap has all the frequencies in it . )
Stan states, that you must overcome the dead short condition before resonance will occur
and allow the voltage to take over and do the work.
This is were everyone including me took this statement way out of context.
It dose not mean applying a high voltage to the water and it will just go away.
It means removing the water within the cells, which is a dead short condition in order to over come it.
aka Negative water radicals
So the question is how do we remove the dead short condition so the coils can interact with one another?
The answer is Amp leakage within the cell.
So how do we create this Amp leakage in the cell?
The answer is with the L1 Choke Inductive Reactance and the Cell Capacitance Reactance.
When you design the choke and the cell it has to meet certain criteria.
When you subtract the two from one another you don't want the math to come out to zero.
What you want is a ohm value left over.
That ohm value is what is going to cause the Amp leakage within the cell.
This is where you get into voltage leading the current or voltage lagging the current, depending on if the net value of ohms is capacitive or inductive. Electron EEC Extration
So in other words as the voltage increases so does the amp leakage.
At a certain point of increased voltage the water will be remove from the cell and will be replace with gas.
it does not mean dry it means the cas polarities make a nano bubles chain casuing a change
with majority of charges present between the tubes. like snoke flakes forming but linked togther,
This is where the resonate reaction will occur between the two chokes and the voltage will take off to infinity and the amps will drop to nearly nothing. (Voltage taking over and doing the work). Since all coils are adding one another.
In the drawing
I have colored it showing the water in blue and gas in yellow.
As you can see there is amp leakage that causes the water to be removed and replaced with gas or gasses.
Once this is achieved and only when this is achieve is when you will see a resonate condition take place to make Stan Meyers Water Fuel Gas on Demand. THE SATURATION POINT
As you can see we don't want resonance to occur until the water is removed.
In fact we are using the water itself to prevent it from occuring until the water is removed at the same time as the maximun applied voltage is reached.
It is also noted water should be cold and lid on to keep pressure in cell.
What happens in relationship to L2 before the Water being "removed"?
The resistance in the coil of wire on the L2 choke is used as to restrict amps as well.
It will not become part of aiding the voltage until resonance occurs.
Only when the water is removed will the two choke interact with one another.
As Stan states the water is part of the circuit, but once the water is removed you are left with the resistance of the wire used in the coils.
The water itself
and the amount of amp leakage gives you control to reach maxumim voltage
before resonance occurs.
So, the coil behaves only resistive at this time? Or reactive to?
The L1 coke is inductive and the l2 is resistive until the water is removed then it becomes inductive and aids to the voltage when resonace occurs..
People talks about frequency doubling the wrong way. Frequency doubling will not and does not occur until the water is removed and resonance takes place.
Also step charging is taking out of context also. Step charging only occurs as the water is being removed. Once the water is removed and resonance takes place you want see step charging anymore. It's not something you will see that still stay's on your scope. All you will see on the scope is the two chokes interacting with one another and their resonate reaction with one another once resonance is achieved. You have to start the process over again in order to see step charging take place again, or lower and raise the voltage.
So we are still after resonance, but only when the cell is empty of water. In this condition, if things are tuned properly, we should be able to waive a fluorescent bulb near the cell and see the glow from the high voltage.
I would call that basically
to ensure the VIC is actually working as it should.
One might want to connect a high voltage oscilloscope probe and verify, but really all that is needed is something to indicate there is a couple thousand volts per water cap (individual cell).
that you just went into is intentionally creating amp leakage, otherwise known as brute force electrolysis. We need this to electrically separate the plates--make them a true capacitor by removing the dead short.
This is where all the bunk about coating the plates goes out the window. The raw stainless is fine once we have gas between them and not all water.
And once we have gas, the voltage in there will prevent water from returning. The voltage will jump and stay that way under the resonant conditions.
So here's my question about step two: Is the amp leakage needed in proportion to the cell and/or plates? Meaning, if the plates are large, more amp leakage is needed to create sufficient gas where the voltage can begin to rise.
But... There is a limit, if we attempt to draw too many amps from those small gauge wires, it's game over. So the VIC dictates the dimensions of the cell.
It would also seem the cell could be too small allowing the voltage in the VIC to climb too high, also another disaster when the wires begin to arc over.
So if you would Ronnie, can you confirm to us that there needs to be a pretty decent match between the cell and the VIC--get outside the boundaries and the VIC smokes.
Or... Is the voltage produced by the VIC limited to the Q-factor of the resonant components--coils and water cap?
Let me try and answer one question at a time.
Amp leakage needed is not due to surface area or the length of cells, It is due to the gap of the cell and the amount of water that needs to be removed and the voltage your are trying to achieve.
You want the water to be removed at the same rate as voltage applied. in other words you don't want the water removed at 6 volts and resonance to occur when your wanting to apply 12 volt to the primary.
The more high voltage you can apply to the gas the more excited it will be and will become a more powerful gas.It is something you have to control with math when designing the vic and cell.
The smaller the water gap, therefore it takes less amp leakage due to less water to be removed. As you see this in the water injector.
You are exactly right Matt, you can not draw more current than the wire you use will allow. This is where everyone needs to be careful, once resonance occurs the voltage will climb towards infinity even with the smallest amount of current in the secondary side,
if knocked out of tune it will make toast out of your VIC in an instant. Unlike those, that allows people to set and turn knobs, You cannot allow anyone to tune anything once resonance is achieved.
And to answer your question about match between the Vic and Cell, yes it has to be a matched by design, you want all cells to have close to a perfect match as you can get. That way you have the same voltage across each cell, which will require the same Amp leakage to remove the water at the same time.
You want the resonance to occur at the same time in each cell.
People have made the statement many times,
There is no way Stan could be producing enough gas to run an engine.
The Fact is Stan doesn't have to produce a lot of gas to run a car or air plane, or rocket engine.
It's not done by producing a lot of gas.
It is done by exciting the gas to a higher voltage , to make what gas he does make more powerful.
This is Done via a positive earth electron sink methos on eec and all surfaces no bubbler and all fuel lines positive +. This is what GTNT and stop it from reforming to water in the fuel lines.,
That's why it has to be diluted to equal the burn rate of gasoline or any other fuel source that is being used.
The Vic uses the L1 and the cell to get the system started.
That's what I was saying it is by design,
The Inductance reactance of L1 and the Capacitance reactance can not be zero when the math is done or in other words balanced.
It has to be a positive number which will be (ohms) when they are subtracted form
one another, not reactance of either of the two. the surface area of the outter cathos is more than the annode, this can be futher stabilized and enhace with dbd quartz tube.
This will allow a small amount of current in the cell as the voltage amplitude increases up to 11 or 12 volts. You do not want the water to be flushed from the cell until you reach almost maximum applied voltage.
You want it to be flushed with graduations of voltages 2 4 6 8 10 volts.
Therefore you get maximum voltage when the system goes into resonance
at around 10 or 11 volts from the VIC's primary.
It's so important that the system doesn't try to go into resonance with water still in the cell, all you will get is amp leakage production.
It is also important that it doesn't go into resonance with the cells flushed at 6 or 8 volts because you lose all that voltage you still have left (12) volts.
You want the resonate action to take place at or close to peak input voltage, that way you get maximum high voltage when the system goes into resonance.
Let me answer this way! If I cut a piece of 75 ohm coaxial cable to three inches long knowing it had a smaller wire than the outer shield. would it not have a capacitance value due to the dielectric between them?
If you work the formulas out witch consist of guss's law and others you will see how it has a 75 ohm value. Same thing applies to the cell, which Stan says a value of 78.54 ohms. Do the math, work things out to better understand it.
This part I don't understand:
I went and got one of my cells that I use and here are the measurements.... outer tube inner Dia=.648 inner rod Dia=.5 Gap=.074
What is the difference between that stackable gas resonant cavities (that white ones I think) and the gas gun?
I know the difference between molecular hydrogen and atomic. I heard the blogtalkradio interview from Meyer's twin brother, he said that they realised that they dont need that much gas.
There is a common mistake to think that it is the same hydrogen. This is not a chemical reaction, and some people dont accept that.
Both of them are used for gas excitation to take the gas to a higher State.
What I would like to do at some point is to fill two separate balloons of equal size on with Faraday gas and Stan's Gas and light them on a video. To me that would be a better video for everyone.
We would never get to see that video because the camera and the crazy guy holding it would be gone. Now maybe if you did it remotely using something like those model rocket launchers you'd be okay, but I can't say the camera would.
There's an aspect to all this completely unknown to most of us and that is, what's the limit to how energetic this form of gas can get?
To me, good enough is it. If it will run the size engine or heater I want to connect up to it, that's good enough.
Pushing one's luck in this department could be a really bad idea. Kind of brings me back to the discussion you and I had about Ed Mitchell's work.
With the voltages he has going on, things could get way out of control and happen so fast that his research days would be gone forever.
Something we all should heed attention to.
There can be such thing as not only working, but working too well, to the point of disaster.
None of us are there yet, but it would be a good idea to keep this thought in your mind--we don't know what the limit here is or if it even has a limit.
that's why I gave the Fluorescet Bulb example:
If you keep exciting the gas in the bulb with higher voltages it will get brighter and brighter until it reaches a point that it will explode. LOL
Having read what you've said about the function of the VIC and tuning of the cell etc, can you explain how those principles fit into the below schematic for Stan's simple bifilar system.
You will see that both coils lengths are the same and there is no primary, it is fed with rectified AC voltage in bursts using a gate. The voltage is 0-115vAC probably
using a variac.
Can you explain to the forum the phases of the bifilar, each coils relationship to each other and their relationship to the cell and why Stan has written 'Amp inhibiting circuit (without amp influxing)'
That's a good photo to share, I was going to share it later, but since you already have I will talk about it.
First: it shows that the chokes does not have to be on the same core material as the primary and secondary. You will find a few more to prove this in the Tech Brief.
Second: It shows a balance coil design which leaves you with only one variable left that you can make adjustments with. (which is the capacitors) Which he used tubes that he could slide up and down to make adjustments with along with a flat plate cell that is a variable to tune the system.
Third: The l2 choke is always an amp inhibitor until the system hits resonance them and only then will it react with the other coils.
Is that second stage (resonance) automatic when the voltage goes up to a certain level or we have to do something special?
We can clearly hear Stan saying that resonance superimposes the particle impact to the polarization process rising the yeld of gas production (New Zealand house meeting vídeo)
You want that resonance to occur at your peak voltage applied to the primary and not before. That way you get all the high voltage you can produce on the secondary side when it goes into resonance.
The leakage current is what's controlled from 2 to 11 or 12 volts.
it's automatic once tuned
the L1 choke and cells has to be designed to setup the amp leakage along with Frequency.
Let's take Stan's primary for instance:
It has 10.5 ohms in the coil of wire used because he wants a 500 turn on the primary.
The wire he uses is rated at 1.2 amps.
in order to get 1.2 amp in the primary you just take 10.5 ohms and a 220 ohm resistor in parallel with the coil and it will give you 1/(1/220+1/10.5)= 9.97 close enough to 10 ohms then you take 12volts/10ohms=1.2 amps
You don't want to fool with your turn count ratio.
Stan used the wiper arm on L2 to regulate the voltage on one set up but on the bifilar set up there is no regulator apart from the plates.
That would mean the plates would need to form a plasma ark to create a voltage dump so that the reactance of the cell could be matched. Here is how I think Tesla did it:
Anyway i'm hogging your thread, sorry i'll just be on the sidelines from now on.
I want to put to rest what the L2 choke is:
I haven't told this to anyone so your going to see it here for the first time.
It is a built in Phase-Shifter Circuit in the VIC, It is for the purpose of providing a desired phase
shift in the output voltage compared with the input voltage.
Depending on the value of the capacitor and the value of the variable resistor or (inductor) you can determine the phase shift you want.
Kinda looks like the Frequency doubling Stan talks about, don't it?
I just cant understand why it is looking like na AC wave, swinging above and beyond the 0V, if I remove the gating I cannot see the step charge rising
Remember you'll only see the step charging as the water is being displaced. Depending upon the parameters you have, this may happen so fast you may never see it unless you have a nice DSO with a lot of memory.
The idea of keeping it simple means essentially to just run the cell full throttle--let it produce all it can. Gating is not required for this.
With gating, you are actually creating a condition of start/stop on the cell continuously, instead of just letting the voltage rise on its own.
Gating is pretty important when you are trying to maneuver your buggy into a garage packed with equipment; so is voltage control on the primary. If you're hammer down on the open road, the input voltage will be max at 12 volts and gating shut off.
Gating manipulates the production rate; voltage control sets the energetic value of the gas. Both together allows you to control an engine perfectly for the conditions.
I want to put to rest what the L2 choke is:
It is a built in Phase-Shifter Circuit in the VIC,
It is for the purpose of providing a desired phase shift in the output voltage compared with the input voltage.
Ah Hah! THIS IS CORRECT
That's what I suspected. Like I've said before, timing is everything.
Look at where that red line is. Do you see your voltage required to get electrolysis started? I do.
And since it's timing related, you know what that means--changing the running frequency will raise heck with your desired phase shift.
So you have to get the running frequency nailed down before you attempt to adjust the negative choke or all bets are off.
You have to be able to control the phase shift it in Stan's system.
You are exactly right about that Matt!!!!! and at hammer down and if the gas pressure gets to high in the cell the
gas management card shut the cell down to a preset voltage but never turning it completely off and once the cell drops to a low pressure per-set value it turns the cell back on again.
You have to be able to control the phase shift it in Stan's system.
Merc, if you dont know much about the phases and what it dose with C and L do read up on it, you will need to know about it, google "Power Factor" and r3ead up on it,
also read up on it here find the sections related to L C and Resonance, and Power factor.
if you under stand phase shift, sorry for extra information, for others who do not know the relationship between voltage and current, do read up on it.
Ronnie, i have a simple Question. explain how and why the diode is in there. we know we are trying to make DC not AC Correct?
for for me the diode dose may have more reason than meets the eye.
you have to be able to control the phase shift it in Stan's system.
Like hwsaid timing is everything.
And for this circuit, timing is handled by the length of wire.
You have an signal originating from the secondary, one side heads down the positive choke; the other down the negative choke.
Now one might think where these two signals meet at the WFC, you have maximum voltage separation and that's true, at resonance. But you don't have resonance until the water is displaced.
What you have is a direct short through the water. In essence the output of both chokes are shorted together at this stage in the operation.
That's a no-go all the way around.
But we still have this little trick we can play and that is shortening the length of wire on the negative choke.
So,we say this is due to small diameter inner tube to outer tube diameter.
Let's suppose we have a center-tapped secondary and at that center-tap we connect the ground of our two-channel scope as a reference point.
Now we connect probe-A to the output of the positive choke
and probe-B to the output of the negative choke.
What should we see?
If the two chokes are equal length, we'll see two identical signals, perfectly in-phase.
Make sense? The signal has to travel equal lengths of wire through each choke and therefore they will arrive at the same point at exactly the same time.
Now what happens if we shorten the negative choke (take off turns)?
You don't suppose we'll see a phase shift do you?
The signal from the negative side of the secondary should get to the output of the negative choke first.
So now run a differential between probe-A and probe-B.
You should see a voltage there.
If that voltage exceeds 2 volts per cell, bingo!
You have the start of electrolysis in your WFC.
Get to that point and you're off to the races.
So now do you see how to tune the negative choke with water in the WFC after you have already tuned for resonance with high voltage on an empty (dry) WFC?
The thing to keep in mind with Stan's technique,
you are only creating just enough phase shift to squeak out a few volts to start electrolysis; once resonance takes over,
these few volts are far overcome by the thousands of volts when the water is fully displaced in the WFC.
The little bit of voltage loss due to this phase-shift becomes negligible.
Yellow == Primary
Green == Feedback
Blue == Secondary
L1 is next to Secondary,
L2 is up by the primary.
one is in phase one is not.
"So now do you see how to tune the negative choke with water in the WFC after you have already tuned for resonance with high voltage on an empty (dry) WFC?"
I never thought to tune with a empty cell or..... set the offset to 2v
That's 2 volts per each cell within the WFC. So if you have a six cell WFC, 12 volts should do it. Remember, cells are connected in series.
DC into the primary....but AC will come out /or into the chocks
by way of the WFC.
Also there is also ringing from the coils. that often means it will go below the 0 reference line. DC normally will not go below it, that is not a fact! that is my experience with these coils for what ever it is worth.
here are some examples.
Nav, you remove turns from L2, that is the " wiper arm" its a thing you tune by removing turns a few at a time ( lets say 25 at a time) until you see the results your looking for. Matt explained this quite well above.
mentioned that if we centre tap the secondary, remove a few turns from L2 then you should see a differential of 2v per cell. I have a few questions. Firstly, how could you do this with a bifilar where Stan mentions the coil wires are the same size, how do you get your 2v?
Secondly, if you centre tap the secondary and use it has a ground then place scope probes across L1 and L2 are you not just measuring the the potential difference in coil length and therefore voltage?
Of course remembering that 3 coils and different tap points are similar to 3 phase transformers with their respective wondering about of potentials.
Here is a couple photo's of the phasing and how the coils are connected. Hope this helps everyone and answers a few questions. Can you tell which coils are aiding and opposing each other?
Question about the choke coils being the same.
The way I can answer this is.
As you can see in plain sight in the photos above, there is a B+ and B- voltage. (Example B+ 500 volts and B- 500 volts. (If the choke coils are of equal value)).
In a perfect situation, if the L2 choke has the right amount of resistance in it to stop current flow, and because the blocking diode which only conducts electrical energy in one direction. During pulse off time it also would stop current flow back into the secondary to prevent shorting of the secondary.
We don't want a perfect situation, we want electron movement in the cell. We want what Stan calls (Electron Bounce) which is electron movement within the cell from plate to plate during On time and Off time.
Since voltage is pressure, we can create this electron movement by having two different voltage pressures. (Example B+ 500 volts and B- 450 volts).
Can you tell which coils are aiding and opposing each other?
Should they be aiding? Or should they be opposing (bucking)? The two chokes that is.
I can also see the L2 coil appears to have fewer wraps of wire. At least is looks a bit smaller in diameter to me.
the secondary and L1 are aiding each other
secondary and L2 are opposing each other.
That's how you get a B+ voltage and B- voltage.
Compare the two photos bove and you can see the aiding and opposing.
The second photo came out of the Grobb book if you want to look it up
. It's in the chapter 19 Inductance. It will also teach you how to calculate the mutual inductance of aiding and opposing coils.
I'm not getting into the Math of it all, Right now I just want everyone to be able to Identify all the working parts of the VIC.
I can also see the L2 coil appears to have fewer wraps of wire. At least is looks a bit smaller in diameter to me.
Primary (Yellow) -> 10.5 ohms
Feedback (Green) -> 11.5/11.1 ohms
Secondary (Blue) -> 72.4 ohms
Choke 1 (Red) -> 76.7 ohms
Choke 2 (Red) -> 70.1 ohms
AWG 30 resistance to length values:
Primary (Yellow) -> 10.5 ohms / (103.2 ohms / 1000 feet) = 101.744186047 feet
Feedback (Green) -> 11.5 / (103.2 ohms / 1000 feet) = 111.434108527 feet
Secondary (Blue) -> 72.4 ohms / (103.2 ohms / 1000 feet) = 701.550387597 feet
Choke 1 (Red) -> 76.7 ohms / (103.2 ohms / 1000 feet) = 743.217054264 feet
Choke 2 (Red) -> 70.1 ohms / (103.2 ohms / 1000 feet) = 679.263565891 feet
Source: Dynodon's Stan estate data sampling. Continued:
Primary to secondary ratio is 1 to 7.
Further note you remove turns from L2, that is the " wiper arm" its a thing you tune by removing turns a few at a time ( lets say 25 at a time) until you see the results your looking for. Matt explained this quite well above.
if you remember Stan saying in one of his video's he was talking about a tv and how you adjust the B+ voltage. You can do this either by taking turns off the L2 or add turns to L1.
But for the Math of everything to keep B+ higher than the B- and to keep it equal and balanced, This goes back to what Nav was talking about when he was stating the coils are matched.
What ever you take off the L2 it must be added back to L1 if that makes any since.
That way you only take off half of what you need on L2 and add back to L1. Man this VIC is a complicated little animal for it to be nothing but a bunch of wire coiled up on a core.
Lol The biggest thing is identifying each part of the VIC and how they work together and knowing how to calculate the math for each part to come up with a working end result when your done.
You must know what the end result needs to be before you even start.
I have described the end result in my posts, so that ought to give some insight of what everyone should be working towards.
You want, as in Stan words (Voltage stimulation) (Electron Bounce) (Electron Movement) (Current Flow) what ever the term you want to use along with High Voltage, within the cell but not get back to the Secondary that's the end result.